EP 5: Sustainability vs. Fire Safety - Can We Build Green Without Getting Burned?

Can a building be both green and safe? In this thought-provoking episode, we dive into the overlooked tensions between sustainability and fire safety. Joined by fire safety engineer and lecturer Rhoda, we unpack how eco-friendly building materials—like wood—offer climate-conscious benefits but introduce new fire risks. From concrete’s carbon footprint to the vulnerabilities of informal settlements, this conversation explores the complex trade-offs in designing for both people and the planet.

We examine why safety must be built into sustainability from the start, how regulations are struggling to keep up with innovation, and why public awareness is just as critical as good policy. The episode wraps with a candid confession segment that encourages listeners to reflect on the blind spots in their own sustainability choices.

Key Takeaways:

• Going green shouldn’t mean compromising safety.
• Fire risks must be considered early in the design process.
• Wood is sustainable but combustible—innovation must be paired with caution.
• Fire safety regulations often trail behind rapid changes in materials and design.
• Informal settlements face unique challenges that demand context-specific solutions.
• Cross-disciplinary collaboration is key to creating truly resilient spaces.

Whether you're a designer, policy maker, or conscious consumer, this episode will spark reflection on how we balance ambition with responsibility in the built environment.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Sustainability and Safety
• 1:07 Understanding Fire Safety in Sustainable Materials
• 3:07 Personal Perspectives on Sustainability
• 5:28 The Conflict Between Sustainability and Fire Safety
• 8:20 Innovations in Fire Safety and Sustainability
• 10:52 Balancing Innovation and Safety Regulations
• 13:20 Materials That Balance Sustainability and Fire Safety
• 15:39 Public Awareness and Regulation in Fire Safety
• 18:17 Lessons for African Cities from Global Practices
• 20:36 Candid Confessions and Closing Thoughts

Transcript

Kabelo (00:00)
So I was rewatching Charlie's Angels movie, and there's this tech system that they call Callisto and it was launched and was supposed to be futuristic energy efficient and it would essentially bring green energy through a communication solution. But underneath that marketing shining marketing tool, it turns out that Callisto's was actually quite dangerous. It was, it could literally be weaponized.

And it made me think about how in real life we often push for green or sustainable solutions without always checking if they are truly safe. And for me, it really was a reminder that sometimes the pursuit of sustainability can actually put people at risk. And that is why in today's conversation, we're going to talk about sustainability and safety, the clash between the two.

And we're especially going to focus on fire safety because I am joined by a colleague of mine, friend Rhoda. She is a researcher in fire safety at

Luleå University of Technology in Sweden and she holds a PhD in mechanical engineering. So today she's going to bring in her expertise on how buildings and materials perform under fire and what sustainability can learn from fire safety. And so, yes, let's get into it.

I'm Kabelo, a corporate sustainability PhD researcher navigating life across cultures and continents. Here, we talk honestly about trying, failing, and still caring about the environment.

As I said, today I am joined by Rhoda Mensah, a very educated friend, I might say.

and she's going to share all her expertise on fire safety and sustainability. Rhoda, welcome.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (01:50)
Thank you, Kabelo. I am flattered.

Kabelo (01:53)
Okay, so we're just we're gonna jump straight into the conversation. But before we do, I'd like you to kind of introduce yourself and let the Canada Sustainability listeners know who you are and what you have to share with us today.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (02:07)
Yeah, I'm Rhoda AFriya Mensah, as you said. I'm a researcher in the Division of Structural and Fire Engineering in Luleå University of Technology. My research centers around material fire safety. So we look at materials that are used in structures and how they perform in fires. We look at their fire behaviors. And so I do material flammability assessments. I do fire testing.

and lately I've been working on hydrogen safety. I think sustainability is very interesting. So basically we are looking at not trashing the planet while we live on it, right? So we are making sure that we use just enough resources so that the future generations will have what they need, right? But the question we are asking

Kabelo (02:48)
Mm-hmm.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (03:00)
now as every decision we are making really sustainable? Or are we compromising safety when we make these choices? So let's get into it.

Kabelo (03:06)
Exactly.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, for sure. But before we do, maybe let us know. I think you've already given us a glimpse of what sustainability could mean in the context of fire safety. But I'm curious to know what sustainability means to you personally, like in your personal life, perhaps. What does that mean to you? Sustainability?

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (03:30)
at being making responsible choices. But do I even do that?

Kabelo (03:34)
Well, we'll get into that when we get to candid confessions because I need to really know if we practice what we preach. But okay.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (03:42)
But what

comes to mind now is people wearing clothes from thrift stores. Yeah, kind of. And then eating vegetables. When you talk about from a layman's perspective, see that is that those are the things people think about eating green.

Kabelo (03:49)
That's your definition of sustainability.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (04:05)
making responsible choices with transportation and all of that. But I don't think I am really going along with that because I'll give you an example. If I am given an option to take a train instead of a flight, I will go for the flight because I think I will save time. Right. So I don't think I am there yet.

Kabelo (04:16)
Okay.

Uh-huh.

You

Mm-hmm

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (04:31)
but hopefully sometime I will be.

Kabelo (04:32)
Okay.

Okay, that's quite interesting. I like how you just got candid with us there. So let's get into the reason why we're having this conversation. I'm curious to know from your perspective as a fire safety engineer, where do you see sustainability choices conflicting with perhaps fire safety standards?

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (04:54)
Yeah, I see a lot of that there is tension between sustainability and fire safety. And I'll give you some examples. Let's take a look at one of the biggest material debates, concrete versus wood. So concrete has been used in construction for years, since ancient Roman times. And now in our modern world, concrete is still being used. It's one of the most widely used materials globally.

And in concrete, there's a key ingredient that is cement. It's used to their aggregate together. So cement is one of the most important components in the concrete. But the problem is that the production of one ton of cement releases nearly a ton of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. So this means that concrete is far from sustainable when we talk about emissions and climate impact.

So now there's a growing push to renewable low carbon alternatives. And wood is often the to-go choice. Now wood is sustainable. It is biodegradable. It is nice. I mean, if you see wooden buildings, they are very attractive, but there's a trade off. Wood is a fire resistance. So when we build with timber, we are actually increasing fire vulnerability.

Kabelo (06:00)
Yeah.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (06:11)
And to compensate that, we end up adding extra layers of fire protection. So for example, we will put gypsum boards or let's say fire retardant coatings on the wood to make it fire resistant, to give it a level of fire resistance because we can't get it totally fire resistant, right? But then we have to ask ourselves that are we being resource efficient? Because if we are adding something else to the wood, then that means we are using more material, we are increasing

Kabelo (06:30)
Yeah

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (06:40)
cost as well. And then let's talk about fire events too. When there's a fire, timber burns longer and it produces more smoke than what we will get in, say, concrete. Right. So in switching to this more sustainable material, we are compromising safety. So in this essence, we are moving from concrete to wood to save the environment. But what happens to fire safety? We are moving the problem from the climate

Kabelo (06:41)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (07:07)
to fire safety, which is not very ideal. And this is just one example of it.

Kabelo (07:10)
Yeah.

Yeah and you know it's quite interesting you say that. So what does this look like because when you're talking about how wooden buildings are so nice, Rhoda and I both live in Sweden at the moment in Luleå and there's this building in Skellefteå that is a hotel. It's made out of wood. It's actually called the Wood Hotel and it's a site for Saweyes. It's a really beautiful building and I'm guessing they've also put all the technologies in it that you're referring to.

in order to minimize the fire safety incidents. But I'm wondering, do you think something like this would work? Do you know in any instance where it's worked, perhaps in Ghana, where you're from, or maybe somewhere in an African country? And like, what would that really look like? Because when you were talking, I was actually thinking about how in Southern Africa,

We had traditionally mud houses and I don't know if now I'm just going on a tangent because I really want to know what does that mean for mud houses because we also use thatch for the roofing. What does that speak of in terms of... It's a disaster!

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (08:13)
That is a disaster. Yes. Yes.

There's actually a research. This man, Professor Richard Walls from Stellenbosch University, he has done a lot of research on informal settlements. And it is a disaster because when there's fire in one of those structures, it just spreads so much because we are using very dry material.

Kabelo (08:19)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Mmm.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (08:39)
to build and it all increases the fire load. So this is a problem.

Kabelo (08:43)
Yeah, I know especially in informal settlements, like now I'm thinking South Africa where there's like informal settlements and there's literally a field of shacks and for me that's just visualizing it as a fire safety. But okay, let's move on. It's quite interesting what you bring there. So you're talking about this innovation of like all this coating material that needs to now go on the

wood structures in order to make them more fire resistant and just how it we need more resources for that then we're now talking cost and i don't even want to get maybe deeper into the conversation of are these materials even are they sustainable i mean is this material not going to leach into the water and cause other issues what does

Is that a conversation we want to get into now?

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (09:34)
Yeah, that is a problem too. Because now in Europe, some of these flame retardants have been burned because they are not meant for the environment. So in the bid to use fire resistant materials, we also have to look at the ones which are environmentally friendly and the quantity you can use and how to prevent leaching into the environment and all of that. So this is a whole different thing.

Kabelo (09:37)
huh.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Now I'm stressed. This conversation is okay. But now tell me, Roda, how do you think then that decision makers can then balance this, the need to innovate because that's what we're doing. We're looking for technologies and all of these stuff, we're trying to be innovative in the sustainability space. But also how do they balance it with precaution then in your views?

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (10:00)
Yes.

Innovation is very important, but we can't afford to ignore risk. one gap I have seen is that innovation is very, innovation is fast, but developing regulations is very slow. It's a whole process. Bringing out fire testing procedures, safety codes, response planning and everything, it's a slow process. So innovation often outruns

regulations. So there's this gap that is there. And what I will say is that they should start asking the important questions earlier in the process. So if you are designing a new material, fire safety should be part of the equation. You should ask yourself, are there any unintended consequences with this new material? And how is it going to affect fire safety?

and all of that should be done. And also there should be collaboration between the different disciplines. If I am an architect, I should work with fire safety experts, sustainability consultants, emergency planning people, so that we will all come together, bring together ideas that will help build something that is sustainable and also safe, so that there will be a balance in the equation.

Kabelo (11:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I know.

you.

That sounds like great advice. can imagine just how, I don't know if I should say this, but I guess it's the candid to sustainability podcast and we're trying to be candid. I'm more in the management side of things, right? That's where my research lies. And we always have this, I mean, I don't know if it's a conversation or it's us jabbing at the engineering students that they always like to work in silos. They don't want to, and maybe this is, it is.

Now I'm just generalizing and that's not the case. But in the instances where I had to work a lot with some of my engineering colleagues, it's almost like they don't see or they don't want to see how everything links together. They just focus on the science, which is absolutely good. But I like when you say that collaboration with different like interdisciplinary

Taking that interdisciplinary perspective is important for us to find innovative solutions for sustainability, but not at the compromise of safety. So I think it's really good. But now tell me Rhoda, what are some examples that you can give of materials or maybe even systems that strike this balance between sustainability and fire safety? If we heard that wood is good, but

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (12:28)
Yeah.

Kabelo (12:45)
There's also that issue with the coating. So what other materials are they in?

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (12:50)
I will say there's no perfect material. Yes, a material can be green, but it will not be fire safe. But there are examples of some, I can give you some materials that would do a better job, but with fire protection. So in wood, we have cross laminated timber. And when it comes to fire, its performance depends on how it's protected. Right. So

Kabelo (13:05)
Mm-hmm.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (13:13)
The question to ask is how much protection do you need for the material and how it is being used? We can also use steel. Steel is good, but it also needs protection as well. And there are gypsum boards that are used for fire protection even in timber structures. And there's this new material. It's geopolymer concrete.

Kabelo (13:18)
Mm-hmm.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (13:36)
It's a newer alternative to cement. So it's made from industrial byproducts like fly ash or slag, and it gives very low CO2 emissions. So these are the materials that comes from the top of my head, but I think these can be considered. Yeah.

Kabelo (13:46)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

But I'm guessing all these materials are accessible because I'm thinking maybe there's my aunt somewhere in, I don't know, in a village and they're like, well, I also want to be sustainable, but do I have access to these materials and I don't want my house to burn down or at least minimize the probability of that happening. Are these materials accessible?

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (14:15)
depends on where you are. I am not sure if steel is everywhere, I think, but for gemstone boards, I don't know if they are being used in Africa. And geopolymer concretes are still in the research stage. hopefully, it will be commercialized soon, or it has been commercialized. have to check.

Kabelo (14:18)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm. Okay, but

Okay. So, but tell me, do you really think that the general public, because the whole aim of this podcast really is to make sustainability relatable? And I'm just wondering, do you think that the public really understands risks associated with materials that they use and just fire safety? And what role do you think maybe just regulation in general or

regulation plays in making sure that sustainability doesn't put people's lives at risk.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (15:05)
I don't think people are fully aware of fire risks. Normally we only talk about fire when the incident happens and then we see that we've lost a lot of things and people are dead. That's when we start talking about fire. But after the conversation dies down, no one talks about it again. And then we wait until there's another fire. Then we all start making decisions about it.

So it's a very serious issue. And I think the regulation is often reactive. It is not proactive. How should I explain this? It is based on lessons from our past disasters. So for example, we have this regulation severe, so directive that was created or developed because there was a disaster at

Kabelo (15:32)
Hmm.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (15:54)
severe so they made those regulations so that we don't have to encounter that again. So normally these regulations are reactive, right? But I would say that regulation should be performance based. We should think about the bigger picture and what disasters can happen in the future.

Kabelo (16:03)
Hmm.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (16:15)
If we are able to think about things in that sense, then we can provide solutions before they even happen. So regulations help a lot. They help so that people don't compromise on safety. Because we have fire safety standards, which ensure that every new material that is coming on the market should have a certain amount of fire resistance.

Kabelo (16:22)
Mm-hmm.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (16:39)
Right, so if you are producing a new material, you have to do fire resistance testing and there are different classes to that. And you should make sure that you are within that, what's the word? Yeah, within that regulations before that can be commercialized. So in that case, the regulation is helping us not to compromise on safety and not to.

Kabelo (16:59)
Mm-hmm.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (17:03)
kill people with the products that are coming on the market. I don't know if your question has been answered because I don't know about the interviewees anyway.

Kabelo (17:05)
Yeah.

Okay, yeah,

Yeah, I think it has been. I mean, we've also already talked briefly about just the tragic fires that happen in informal settlements. I think this happens just in a lot of different places. I want to know what you think the lessons that African cities can take from global fire safety practices.

without ignoring local because people, for instance, live in informal settlements because that's what they can afford. It's not that they really want to be in these spaces. So what lessons do you think, because you're doing your research in an international environment, and I'm wondering why do you think that African cities can take?

from the global fire safety practices and without ignoring the realities of people back at home.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (18:02)
There's a lot to say about this. The first thing I will talk about is that in Africa we don't usually follow regulations.

Kabelo (18:04)
Yeah.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (18:10)
It will surprise you that some people are building and they don't even know that there are regulations when it comes to fire safety. So they just build with whatever materials they think it's nice without looking at the effect it will have when there's a disaster. they have to follow regulations. And I know now the conversation is more about materials, but there are

Kabelo (18:18)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah, that's really concerning.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (18:37)
other challenges as well. And one thing is moving from, when it comes to energy generation, we are moving from fossil-based fuels to renewable resources. So we are using a lot of solar panels in Africa. And when you're using solar panels, you are adding more electrical wiring and components.

to the building, these are all made of plastics. Plastics increase fuel load. So when there is a fire, it makes the fire bigger. And secondly, if there's a fire, it's difficult to cut off the power when solar is involved. So if firefighters are coming into a building, they need to cut off the fire because they are going to use water to, yeah.

Kabelo (18:59)
you

Hmm.

Hmm.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (19:23)
It's a huge risk in a building with solar panels. If you cut off the main power source, the solar will start working. Right. So that complicates things a lot. So we have to look at the bigger picture and consider all of these different perspectives before we make decisions. But we don't do that in Africa. And it's a problem.

Kabelo (19:31)
my gosh.

Yeah, I guess we're gonna have to have a different another episode where we're just talking about perhaps regulation and whether or not people follow different regulations not just in Africa really and not just with in terms of fire safety but yeah it really opens up a can of worms and I wish we had more time but I don't want to keep you too long

So I'm just going to move on to the session of the podcast. We call candid confessions. So this is where you tell us something that, well, it's candid and sustainability related. So I'm going to ask you a question and this is not just to you, Rhoda. I'm hoping that the candid sustainability podcast listeners will also join in the conversation in the chat. If you're listening on Substack, do

Leave a comment and tell me what your confession is. If you're listening on YouTube, please comment and you can do the same if you're listening on Spotify, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to rate the podcast. OK, candid confessions. Rhoda, tell me if you found out that your building's eco-friendly installation was a fire hazard, but replacing it would cost you a fortune. And I'm talking a fortune.

Would you push for change or would you just keep quiet and hope for the best?

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (21:02)
Hmm.

Kabelo (21:03)
So a fortune, so no more traveling, no more what's that secondhand place you just like so much. What did you say? What's that place? Tell me. I forgot the name.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (21:03)
This is very good question.

Kabelo (21:17)
The perfume, please.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (21:18)
come on.

Kabelo (21:19)
No more any of that. So no more guilty pleasures. You can't afford like it's so expensive. So would you just be like, okay, I'm just gonna hope for the best or what?

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (21:24)
Thank

But it

depends. Do I have insurance?

Kabelo (21:33)
You don't. You

are the average human being that is broke and can't afford insurance.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (21:40)
That will be difficult. I will complain a lot, but also bringing the financials in it makes everything complicated. And it also depends on whether I am paying for it by myself or I have a landlord who is supposed to cater for it. If I have a landlord, I will complain to the landlord and

Kabelo (21:42)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (22:00)
make sure they do it, but if it's me then I will give myself time to fix it.

Kabelo (22:06)
Okay, okay.

That's fair. That's fair. Thank you very much for coming, Rhoda. I hope this is not the last time. This was a really enlightening conversation.

Rhoda Afriyie Mensah (22:16)
Yeah, I will.

Kabelo (22:17)
Yes. Well, so this brings us to the end of this conversation. Keep it candid with us and tell us what is one sustainability choice you are still struggling with. And if you want to time in on the candid confessions, remember the question is if you found out your building's eco-friendly insulation was a fire hazard, but replacing it would cost you

a huge fortune, would you push for change or would you keep quiet and hope for the best? Remember to hashtag candid confessions when you answer that. But yes, sustainability isn't just about saving the planet, it's also about saving our lives. So if our green choices are creating new risks and innovations are also creating new risks, especially in the built environment, we

maybe have to rethink what we are calling sustainable. Join us in on Candid Confessions and I may read your answer in the next episode. If you found out your building's eco-friendly installation was a fire hazard but replacing it would cost a fortune, would you push for change or keep quiet and hope for the best? Let's continue the conversation on Substack or Comment. But before you go, remember to leave a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcast.

Like and subscribe if you're watching from YouTube and share this with someone who needs to hear it. Thank you for being here. Let's keep it candid and see on the next one. Keep doing your best.